NerdBrand
NerdBrand

Episode · 7 months ago

Branded Search Results with Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) of Kalicube

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Jason Barnard (the Brand SERP Guy) is a digital marketer who specializes in brand SERP optimization and knowledge panel management. SERP means search engine results page. Brand SERP refers to how your business or organization appears when someone Google's your brand name. Company: Jason Barnard is the founder and CEO at Kalicube – a groundbreaking digital marketing agency that, through the Kalicube Pro SaaS platform, helps clients optimize their Brand SERP and manage their knowledge panel. Author: Jason is a regular contributor to leading digital marketing publications such as Search Engine Journal and Search Engine Land and regular guest on others such as Wordlift, SE Ranking, SEMrush, Search Engine Watch, Searchmetrics, and Trustpilot. Speaker: Jason regularly gives conferences at major marketing conferences worldwide including BrightonSEO, PubCon, SMX series, and YoastCon. Podcast Host: Spanning 3 seasons, "With Jason Barnard" has become a staple podcast for digital marketers. The conversations are always intelligent, always interesting, and always fun! Guests include Rand Fishkin, Barry Schwartz, Eric Enge, Joost de Valk, Aleyda Solis, Bill Slawski. Over 180 episodes are available! If you are looking for help with your SEO strategy or need your brand refreshed, contact us at: https://nerdbrandagency.com/contact-us/ ===== About The NerdBrand Podcast The NerdBrand Podcast is the intersection of nerd culture, branding, and  marketing. Nerd culture is no longer a reserved sub-culture; it’s  mainstream pop culture.  Listen as we discuss our views on branding and advertising, always with a  touch of nerd — technology, movies, comics and novels, video games, and  plenty more. Find more at https://nerdbrandagency.com/podcast   =====   About NerdBrand NerdBrand is a data-driven branding, web design, and advertising agency based in Louisville, KY. From establishing your brand identity to guiding your day-to-day marketing strategies, we bring the "why" of your business to life. Learn more at https://nerdbrandagency.com Connect with NerdBrand LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/company/nerdbrandagency Facebook: https://facebook.com/nerdbrandagency Instagram: https://instagram.com/nerdbrandagency Twitter: https://twitter.com/nerdbrandagency --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/nerdbrand/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nerdbrand/support

Hi everybody. I'm Jason Davis andthe nerve brand podcast, the branding and marketing from a nerds point of view, where we talk about well, branding and marketing. So we do thison Anchor Dot FM. Anchored is the easiest way to make a podcast.Let me explain. It's free. There's creation tools that allow you to recordand edit your podcast right from your phone. A computer. Anchor will distribute yourpodcast for you, so can be her on spotify, apple podcasts anymore. You can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everythingyou need to make a podcast in one place. So download the anchor APPor go to Anchor Dot FM to get started. If you're if you've gotthis kind of ecosystem, this this living thing that lives and breathe around yourwhole brand presence, I mean that's like you were saying, that's where successreally happens. That's where the table doesn't follow over if you know, becauseat some point Google is going to change, at some point the facebook's and instagramsof the world are going to change something and that that leg of yourtable is going to get shaved off a little bit. But I don't knowwhere the analogy goes. After that. You could put your complete slides offthe table, breaks on the floor and you've lost your entire t time.Enjoyment a hundred percent. I really like the way you put by the ideaas well the repup thing I did. It's a right video, youtube orvideo on facebook, but it might be. is where I'm engaging my oldness.I'm going to make contented baby shoot. The whole audience in that place atthe time. They're looking at it on the device, they're looking atit and I will serve them and then I will try, if I can, to repurpose it to get Google's of bonus. That's where you're winning.If you say I create content that pace for itself on the platform. It'son with the audience. It s aimed that in the circumstances they find themselvesin, then I think, how can I repurpose it for Google? IfI can, I do and I get a bonus. Google is the bognus. Welcome to the nerve and PODCAST, everybody. I'm Jason, that's John, that's Midge and this is another Jason. So see there are is more thanone of us. How delightful is that I know, I'm sure.I think the name was popular in the well, obviously I was born inseventy six, so the name was popular. As why I think my parents choseit. So I don't know if you know the backstory of why yourparents may be named you Jason, but that's why. Well, actually,interestingly enough, my parents were in America just before I was born. Bothmy sisters were born in America and I was conceived in America but born inthe UK, and they brought the name Jason Back from the US and theygave me the name so that I stood out a little bit from the otherpeople in my horrible country village, in your Baksha just a little created torturefor me. Yeah, but but so, in fact my name comes from Americarather than the other way around, and maybe after ten years your patternscaught up with the rest of America. Probably it usually takes about ten yearsfor trends to arrive in Kentucky. So ten ten years, MMM, maybea little longer. That very traditional there. You know, my parents were goingto call me chance and then my dad was like no, no,he's not going to be called that because in in school, who'll be madefun of like fat chance, no chance, what a chance, like my dadwas like on it then, you know, he was like no,not calling him that. Good to know, good, yea. You know,it's get to know. Just a little tipid fairy Bouy out there thatwas listening now and going like wow, this podcast started very differently this time, and we do that. So I thought this is totally totally habitual foryou. It started off for the discussion about names, onto insulting Kentucky,and now next that there's insulting the UK. Well, I mean you know Kentuckyis like I'm from. Obviously people that don't know, I mean Ilive in southern Indiana, but yeah, I am from Kentucky. So it'snot really insults are but it's more kind of like stating of a fact.It, you know, just kind of is what it is. You know, it's very hot here in the summer to where you will melt and everybodykind of knows that. I think the biggest, one of the biggest insults. I guess it was an insult. Jennifer Lawrence is one to call hera swamp it. She did it on the Graham Norton Show it's toaste here. Yeah, toast and toast it tostly, what they call Muggie, that iscombination heat and humidity, is pretty, yeah, pretty bad the in theheart of the summertime. ANYWAYS, Jason, go ahead introduce yourself,tell us who you are, what you do, tell us about your companyand you know, the floor is your sir. Well, I mean it'sa segue. I can say I know Muggie. I lived in Mauritius,which is a tropical island in the Indian...

Ocean, for twelve years, whereit's incredibly, incredibly rainy and humid and very hot all year around. SoI feel for you guys. I'm now in Paris in France. I'm thebrands up guy. I'm obsessed by brand search, which is what appears onGoogle when somebody googles your brand name. People who Google your brand name areobviously the most important people to business, that the people are bottom of funnelabout to convert, researching you all your existing clients or your investors or potentialhires, and when they search your brand name, I am specialized in helpingbrands to make sure that it looks positive, accurate and convincing to that audience.Yeah, I don't know if a lot of people have ever. Ithink they would google their own name or they would google the service. Theythink they're probably going to ultimaze a key word for Boundin a lot, maybea lot, think about googling their brand name to see how they appear onthe search engine. Yeah, and I'm absolutely convinced that it's incredibly important.It's Your Business Card. I mean, when I talk to people they googlemy brand name, my sort of my brand, my personal name, butif I say caudy cube pro, which is my company, they're going togoogle that. What appears is phenomenally important. I just said it and I canbet my bottom dollar, oh my bottom euro or pound or whatever,and say, I want to beat him, that at least three people have justgoogled either Jason Barnard or caddy cube or cally cube pro, and atthat point that's three people where I have an opportunity to make a positive impression. I mean, if they like me here, they like me on thebrand surp I think I've got a new friend and we all need as manyfriends as we can get. Yeah, so, Jason, what made youdecided to pursue this as a as a as a company. What was itit made you decaid this is where I want to do, what I wantto hang my hand on? That is a brilliant question. Thank you verymuch. But because in Marisa, in Mauritius, in the heat, Iwas a blue dog in a cartoon and we were pretty successful. We madea TV series with the ITV international was distributed around the world. It wasreasonably successful. We had a big website, was very successful and then I seguedinto digital marketing and I would go and talk sup potential clients how it'sa I'm going to build your digital strategy, it's going to be wonderful and Iwould sell it to them, give them my real physical business card andwalk out and I didn't convert as many as I would have expected and Ialways wondered why while for a couple of years, and then I realize whathappened is I would walk out of the room and they would search my nameand what came up with Jason Barnard is a blue dog, and they wouldimmediately say I'm not interesting my digital strategy to this idiotic cartoon blue dog.And I then set about making sure that what appeared was much more digital marketing. And the blue dog is still there, because your brand certain needs to representwho you are, but it's relegated in inverted commas to part of theknowledge panel. So the blue dog no longer dominates. And when you searchmy personal mind, you will see digital marketing, brand surup Guy. Ithink I counted the other day. It's twenty seven times. It says brandon my brand Sur and that's actively me working on it, and it saysfifteen times knowledge panel. So basically I'm saying when you see my brand serve, you know that I'm talking about brand surps knowledge panels. There was ablue dog in the story, but the blue dog is now relegated to asmall little chunk in the knowledge panel and I think people and brands don't realizehow important it is to manage that message, because that message is being sent outto the people who are most important to your business, who are bottomof funnel, post funnel, existing clients, potential hires, investors, a journalistas well, and they need to be they need to see something positive, accurate and convincing and something that reflects your brand message. But you're aperson or a brand so for the great unwashed out there, and being acreative director, I come from the creative set of things and make things prettyand make sure that images, colors, etc. Fit the person of thebrand. Okay, I'm not a I'm not a digital wizard any stretch.For the great unwashed out there, like me explain exactly what surpent means.All right, yeah, sorry, I do tend to Geek count immediately andthink everybody knows what a surp is. But I think that's kind of theproblem for us all is we get involved in our little world and we forgetthat there is a wider world out there who don't necessarily know all these acronymsact hero nyms of probably the worst thing in the world. If I justsaid search engine results page from the beginning, the search engine results page for asearch on your brand name, nobody would have been going, what ishe talking about? And you just point it out. Nobody's got a cluewhat I'm talking about because I use an acronym that I assumed everyone would knowand could potentially mean lots of other things.

So, yeah, sir, searchengine results page in Google. But also, I'm being I think weshouldn't forget being who are quite important in certain areas. What appears when youraudience search your brand name, be a google, being, duct dot go, Dan ducks, whatever it might be, is phenomenally important, because these peopleare close to Your Business and as a human being, as a person. They're close to you as a human being and obviously thinking about interacting withyou in one way or another. Yeah, cool, Google. I mean Iknow what it means now, now, as in today, but in termsof design, I mean you said design. I was really surprised.I my ex wife is a graphic designer and I had been just pushing imagesout. We separated years ago and I just thought who cares? Just pushedall these images out and on my brands up the the the image boxes appearedand I looked at I say, Ay, it's ugly, be there's no pattern, the colors don't go together and it doesn't represent me. And Ihad these image boxes on my company brands, of the cane cube brands. SoI actually called my ex wife and said, can you please help me, and she then went about creating a graphic design Bible with the colors,with the images, with a logo, the positioning of everything and now yousearch it and might the the visual image that my company projects is very,very clear, and I think a we underestimate the value of a graphic designerwho has talent and be we underestimate the message that that visual image projects toour audience, be it on a brand sup or elsewhere, that the image, image and inverted commas that is thrown across is not just the words,it's the images, and that the images come actually before the words, becausewe see before we read, right. I just it's interesting how odd tiesback, how branding altize, the visual component of branding ties back, regardlessof what medium or where you appear. I mean we're talking about in yourand your surp that having it consistent branding, a consistent branding strategy. It's importantthere as much as as any place outs. Yeah, hundred percent.And the consistency is incredibly difficult to manage. Even as a small company. Yourealize that things slip through the cluck cracks and that things appear in Googleand I think what is interesting from my perspective is I actually managed to pullall of that back and replace the inconsistent visual brand message that I put outover a couple of years with a consistent visual image. And it took methree months. So you don't have to think APP it's all lost, I'vemessed it up. You can actually put it all back and if you makea sustained effort you can replace an entire visual representation to be a brand,at least in Google, but also probably across the most social platforms, inthe space of about three months if you apply yourself. That's really good.To put a kind of tamp frame around that because, yeah, it takesa lot of time. Mean that this was a podcast before it was anagency, so there's a lot of content out there from two thousand and sixteenseventeen with nerd brands name on it, different logo, different message, kindof just different. Right. Yeah, it took it took that a lotof time to kind of like start to clean that up and get that moreuniform and inline with what we are now. And then I got an email nottoo long ago about Google, basically saying like Hey, think about yourimages on your business page, you know, and your Google my business and therethey I think they I didn't read the full statement because I had timethis morning, that they put something in here, like ninety percent of somethinginteraction maybe with those or because, like you said, they see before theyread. So that's been something that we've noticed on just some of the consolereporting on the Google my business page is the images. People hitting those prettyhard now. So I thought that was I thought that's very interesting and importantto kind of fix. So we kind of we worked on that recently ourselveswith our page, our Google my business result page. So right under there'sa phenomenal amount of interaction, but not interacting the sense of clicking. Interactionin terms of seeing and digesting by people. That we can't necessarily measure, butis incredibly important in people's perception of who we are, what we don't, what we represent. Perhaps as well, and I think I mean Mitch,you'll you'll the expert. I'm kind of talking about something I know verylittle about, but I definitely think taking care of you, your visual imageis fundamentally important. I think it goes back to something I think that yousaid, Jason, about people's people. They see but before they read.You know it, people are going to be gravitate toward images before they're goingto read a block of copy. But even how you treat the copy,how you treat your words visually is important...

...to at all. It all tiesit. People lack first from a visual impression and that's what should draw theminto wanting to pursue further, into reading more. That's which it should itshould move them in their process, in that journey toward okay, I wantto read more. This is a Pique my interest, it's sparked my curiosity, it's it's hit a hot button in emotional heartburton on inside me. Iwant to pursue this further. Well, brilliant and, if I can,could pull this back to my pet topic, which is the brands. Up Isthat initial snap picture, and people fail to realize, or brands failto realize, that it's that first impression that you can never take back.And that first impression, it's not a first impression that since you've already presentedyourself, but it's the first independent expression of who you are, what you'redoing, who your audience might be by Google, who we all, likethem or not trust. We tend to trust what Google tells us. Sothat brand, sir, what a appears when somebody searches your brand, I'mis a snapshot of what Google Things. The world thinks of you, andthat snapshot is incredibly powerful for people who are trying to make a decision aboutyour brand or your person, whatever it might be. So controlling it andmaking sure it's positive, accurent condensing at first glance and doesn't need investigating,doesn't need to be read in detail, is phenomenally important. That repetition ofbrand. I mean twenty seven is too many, but you definitely can't missthat. I'm talking about brands and knowledge panels. Right then, people justpeople just say the I mean the digital age is just made it worse becauseeven before that people's attention spans were starting to shrink because of how much mediathey are bombarded by. That now it's compounded to the INSTAGRAEA because of theirsmartphones, their tablets, the computers, they're smart televisions. You've got tomake that impression so quickly now, so quickly in like you said. Ilove what you said. You know you can't get that first impression back.You can't. I mean the Cliche I fall back on his you can't putthe tooth based back in the tube. It's once it's out there, it'sout. Then you've you know now you've made even more work for yourself.But, and I have tried to put the tooth bags back in the TA. But, but, and that comes in. My favorite thing is saying. Now you might think, oh, Google will just show what it wantsto show. That's like saying I'm just going to wear the clothes my mothertells me to wear when I go to the PROM party it. Let yourmother dress you and you can say that you're never going to talk to anybodyfrom your prom throughout the entire evening. Don't let Google your mother dress you. Choose your own clothes. Your mother will accept it. This is Google. So they the analogy is starting to weaken as I talk more. Butit's up to you to tell Google and to convince Google to present you inthe manner that you feel is relevant and helpful and valuable to your audience,because Google simply shows what it perceives to be relevant, helpful and valuable toyour audience, and if it's not showing what is truly relevant, valued andhelpful, it means it's misunderstood, and if it's misunderstood, its up toyou to explain it. Yeah, so how do you do that? Howdo? How do we do that? How do we do that? Howdo it? Not? You say Google tells people what it thinks. Theworld thinks of you. I mean a butcher dad. But no, no, you did it perfectly, but it took a couple of minutes of thought. Yeah, so how do you get, how do you help Google to tellan accurate picture? Well, I'm that's another phenomenally good question and onethat few people ever ask me. And it actually comes back to John Muller, who's the guy at Google who interacts with people like me who becount onhow Google functions and what we can do to influence google. And he's talkingabout reconciliation. And Google's biggest problem is saying you say what you say.That's great, we want to believe you, so we're not going to believe youon your own good word. We need to corroborate that with other informationaround the web. The problem with other relation of the web is that it'sterribly fragmented. So the machine goes around, it picks all this information. It'sgoing. I'm not sure I can make sense of this, but ifon your website, on your page about your company, you can be incrediblyclear what it is you want to say. It has an anchor point, whatI call an entity home, where I can say right, this iswhat they want me to say. Does the information, fragmented though it is, around the Web web, confirm what it is they're trying to project?If it does, I will show that. If it doesn't, obviously it won't. So you can't just lie and expect Google to repeat your lies.But it's truly looking for you to explain to it what you think should bethe representation of your brand to your audience. And your audience is simply a subsetof its users. They have five billion users. Your audience is ahundred thousand, two, hundred thousand,...

Fiftyzero, whatever it might be.The audience is a subset of their users. So they need to represent to youraudience, who are their users, helpful, relevant representation of view,and they have no reason to not represent you honestly in the manner that youwish with your brand message. If you can communicate clearly to Google what thatis, that's just there. It is no God and everything. I justdon't solve the world's problem. Sorry each other. Well, I mean Imean this. I mean John Jason, this is what we tried, andwe did it recently. Excuse me, this is what one of the firstthings I've actually tried to preach the people, especially begin in the whole idea of, you know, they wants to push that Magic Seo Button, yeah, which doesn't need we all know it doesn't exist, but apparently a lotof people seem to think it does. Well, all comes back to this, though. I get a lot of people that are like, I meanright now I'm trying to push out when talking like there's no such thing asseo content. Like I'm trying to get people to understand, like, youknow, stop stopping that thinking of just applying that acronym to something else andthen that, like Mitch said, Magic Button happens, you know, andthere it is pushing. We're good, because it takes like we had DianeRichardson on the show from Sim rush and she said it's like you need patients. That's really what it is, need patients. She needed to prepare forthe long call and it pays, you know, and you know recently shethere was a podcast she was on where they kind of said, you know, we kind of wondered if we shot ourselves in the foot as marketers bysaying the word organic and associating that with free. Because there's no way.This is what you just illustrated, Jason. That's time. That is so muchtime and effort and knowledge to know where to J yeah, so it'snot just what, it's where to go and look for it. That's thekey, you know, and when it comes to knowledge, or wisdom,if you will, whatever you want to apply. So that that's something thatI think is just because it's such an unseen thing that it just fear like. Well, I think, Mitch, did you coin the phrase like we'renot a gumball machiners. It's not like that was John. That was John, that was sewn. It's brilliant. Well, there you go. Yeah, you can't John Man pull the John's first axiom. But making that,as she kind of brings up, brings that multiple points. Is Is Seocontent, and I love the put the fact you brought up. I've neverreally thought it through this way and you've just inspired me to kind of lookat it and say, some content will draw traffic from Google, some contentneeds to be built for that reason, but some content simply exists because youraudience need it. And that content that isn't for Google, that isn't necessarydrawing traffic, is still seen by Google, it's still appreciated by Google, evenif it doesn't send traffic. And actually had an example of the clientwho deleted an entire section of their blog because they said, oh, itdoesn't bring any traffic from Google, therefore we've wasted our time. Therefore wewill delete it. And I would argue you have just deleted a big chunkof content that proves that you're an expert in your field, that you're authoritative, and the Google still sees it and it still appreciates it. All youneed to do now is look at Google. If you search your brand name,look through to pages five, six, seven eight, start searching around yourbrand name with specific keywords and you'll see this content comes up. Googlesees it, Google knows about it and it does contribute to your overall imagein Google's mind and Google's confidence in you as an expert within your field.So it's don't just say we don't have any traffic. Therefore, it's useto say it doesn't apply to our audience, it isn't helpful to our audience.Therefore it's uses a week, throw it away, but if it's helpfulto our audience and we can leaverage some of the kind of value you fromit, which is perhaps social, perhaps your news letter, perhaps sharing itthrough different channels than Google. The fact that Google doesn't send you traffic adoesn't mean it's not valuable and be doesn't need to say Google doesn't see itand appreciate it. Don't. To some extent it's at a trap marketers,markers, kind of fall into. Is that you know, I have tocreate copy for my website, I have to create content from a website thatis google friendly, that is going to that is going to that's going tobe that magnet. I need to to Google to get hits on Google.Is there a little of a trap? And it sounds like you're it's almostlike it's little of a trap we fall into because your can't your content hasa larger picture, like you said. I mean I love what you said. It's for your users, it's for your customers, it's for the people, your audience. Yeah, no, hunder person, and I think peoplemake the mistake of saying every piece of content must be for sel and Googleand pulling in this organic as you said, Jason, traffic. Every piece ofcontent needs to have a goal and...

...you need to set the KPI's.You need to measure its performance by what the goal was. So if you'rewriting a piece of content that is going to a company a newsletter, themeasure of success is what that news letter do, the interaction between that newsletter when your content. If you're creating a piece of content you they're goingto push out on social media, the social media engagement is what's going tomeasure it. And if you create it for Google, Goll, the Googleside of things is going to measure it. So I think any brand with anylong term strategy isn't going to just focus on Google. That's that's aone trick, partly terribly out of out of think business model. If yourely on Google under pan the day there's any kind of problem, you're deadin the water. But if you've got Google, social media, newsletters,engaged audience, returning customers, and you've got those for whatever it might be, there might be fine. Six pillars. I don't really thought it through.You can rely on all of them to bring in a steady flow oftraffic, conversion, whatever it is you're looking for and if you create contentfor all of them, you're creating a solid, balanced digital strategy, andif you obsess about Google, you're becoming this one trick party. That's Ilike to think of tables with all the legs of different lengths and ends upfalling over. I'm a not that's really bad example. I could probably thinkof another one, but cups of tea setting on tables that kind of getout of balance and then just slip off. Maybe that's a good one. That'syeah, I mean to me, I've been trying to push this,and I'm not the only one, but the idea of a content ecosystem aroundyour brain's about putting your eggs in all, in social all and video, althoughthese, you know, for certain brands, those can be the priority. It's about averyone I like an efficiency resort of stadpoint. Work can youcreate? There can then be real purpose pretty easily or with, you know, minimal effort, to live in other channels effectively? And how can you? How can you have a diverse content, because there is no there's no singledesire among your audience. You know, some people like video at certain timesof the day or a certain week, and then the next they'll be,you know, more in the mood to read something about your brand ifyou're if you've got this kind of ecosystem, this this living thing that lives andbreeze around your whole brand presence. I mean that's, like you weresaying, that's where success really happens. That's where the table doesn't follow over, if you know, because at some point Google is going to change,at some point the facebook's and instagrams of the world are going to change somethingand that that leg of your tables going to get shaved off a little bit. But I don't know where the analogy goes after that. So you canput your competite, slides off, the table, breaks on the floor andyou've lost your entire tea time enjoyment, but a hundred percent. I reallylike the way you put that in and the idea as well the repurposing Idid. It's a right video, youtube or video on facebook, whatever itmight be. is where I'm engaging my audence. I'm going to make contentthat really shoot that audience in that place at the time. They're looking atit on the device, they're looking at it and I will serve them andthen I will try if I can, to repurpose it to get Google's bonus. That that's why you're winning. As you say, I create content paithfor itself on the platform and song with the audience. It's saying that inthe circumstances they find themselves in. Then I think, how can I readpups it for Google? If I can, I do. I'm I got abonus. Google is the Bogn us. We talked about content anchors a lotand I don't know where that term came from, but I know thatJason and I have adopted it pretty strongly and you know we have the podcast. That's our podcast. You know, that's our content anchor. Kind ofall of our content strategy, social strategy, Youtube Strategy, all that emanates fromcreating this piece of content. And you know, like I was kindof going back to resources, you can't be everywhere all the time, especiallyas kind of a lean company or or really as a lean marketing department.So you've got to have this this thing that does have various dimensions, thatis easy to you know, to build off of, and that it staysconsistent with your message. I mean that's the that's the other thing we keepharping on is creating content for content sake or for a different channel. Youknow, might be tactically sound to create a different piece of content for social, but does it really align with the all the other content that you're creating? Does it all align with the message? Does it align with what ends upshowing up in Google? You know? So that's to me. Those arekind of the big takeaways. And then, like going back to theexample you gave where they just stripped out, you know, tons of blog postsand just because they weren't getting traffic. It's like, yeah, but youput a lot of effort into a presumably a lot of effort into creatingthat content the first girl round and you've...

...put effort into promoting it, probablyin some various ways. I think a lot of people forget that, hey, you can go back and update content, and Google really they like that.They like to see, you know, the freshness, they like to seethe expansion and the new information and you can salvage you can get trafficfrom a blog post that's done nothing for a year if you just kind ofgo back, reaptimize it, look at what's appearing in the search results forthat. That particular term and try to make a better, better piece ofcontent. Right, sure, I think. I think that's a great point.I mean Danny Goodwin from search engine journal, but a whole kind ofsix months work on updating the content. And I was Sam rushed at aswell with some of my articles. They were they came to me and theysaid can we edit this article to update it, and I read the artof like, yeah, I wrote that three years ago. Yeah, Ican like that, but I can make it more relevant today and I've learnedso putch in the last three years. But I can add my new learning. It's not the things have changed so much, as I've learned lots ofstuff and I can make it more valuable today. Two people, both becauseof the time aspect, because things do change slightly. So I'm being alittle bit contradictory there, but also because I can add more value. Andwhat then happened, of course, is that you will started ranking much betterget more traffic from Google. Perhaps they weren't getting traffic from Google before,but that's a great example of saying you know, you've got this content.It might not be performing. It doesn't mean to say can't perform, itjust means that right now it's not performing because Google doesn't see it, andI think this is really important, Google doesn't see it as a solution toa specific problem asked by its user or, quite answer to a question. AllGoogle is trying to do is answer the question of its user or solvethat problem, and your pieces of content, if you want to please Google,need to provide the solution to a specific problem or the ask to aspecific question that you are credible answering or helping with. That's key. Ithink it goes back to you. You talked earlier about you have to corroborate. Yeah, I think I said, all right, you have to corroboratethe information that's on your site. So of that piece of content is notperforming. Again, it doesn't mean it's it lacks value and it doesn't meanit can't perform. It just means you may need to go out and dosome pr around whatever topic that might be. You need to, you know,get some guests publishing going on on other sides that point back to thatblog. So they are additional tactics that you have, two layers, youknow, to the strategy that you have to kind of you can't just it'snot a set it and forget it type of thing with with any piece ofcontent. I think we all we all agree on that, but I thinkthat's something that, you know, a lot of our customers, I thinkthey look at content esthetic like you create a video and it just you putit out there and it it gets it gets what you want eventually and it'sjust it's just not the way it works. You have to then take it anotherlevel and build that authority right and kind of the things that point backto that piece of content to make sure that Google, you know, canverify that what you're saying is correct. Yeah, as you said, anECO system because I mean if you then create a new piece of content that, with relevance, put points the old piece of content, you're pulling peoplein and then you're using that old content to add additional value to the personwho's coming for the new content content. So it is this constantly growing machine. Machines gives me custantly go an ecosystem that you need to knowish and youneed to add to and you need to, as you said, go back.It's not correcting, it's updating, it's making more relevant for today's audience. Both because they've changed, but also because you have. Yeah, it'sa it's a mechanism that's going to be maintained. I mean I mean Jason'spoint, at Jonathan's point. You just don't build. It thought out thereand it goes. You're for the reasons that you just cited. You're alwaysyour it's like a garden. You're tending ecosystem as a garden. You're tendingthis garden. It's always your cultivating, your planting, you're harvesting, you'retaking which you've harvested and putting those resources back into into creating more content.It just it's a weird the whole fly wheel analogy we went we started withway back when we first started the company. It's a constantly moving mechanism. Itdoesn't stop. You're always fine tuning, you're always adjusting, you're always becauseyou're always, like you said, Jason, you always learning. It'snot that, not that the content was wrong that you but out there's andthe world changes and the Internet changes daily. So it's a it's something that youhave to manage day to day for as long as you're company, YourBusiness or entity exists. Yeah, yeah, and there was something kind of changegears here. So we have time because, I mean, you were, Jason, you were super passionate about...

...this and in our pre interview.And so Google in, well, I got to get the in P.I want to say NPL, but that doesn't sound right. It's an LP, you know. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about that,because you were super, super geeking out over that and I kind of Ilike that. Can you share a little bit are do you want to sharea little bit about that that means and how that can influence a person's results? Well, I think one thing that's really interesting guy see how is we'reall looking, as much said, for that magic button on that magic buttonsimply doesn't exist. What does exist is looking at what Google's trying to achieve, and the fact that it isn't necessarily that yet doesn't change the fact that'swhere it's going and that's where you need to aim. So, rather thanlooking at horizontally what you're trying to do, looking at it from a kind ofparallel point of view, saying that's where googles going, up to whereI need to aim and where is Google going? Google is going towards aworld where it fully understands the world in a manner similar to a human being, which means that when you ask it a question, just like you knowthe baker down the row, which is the best bread for sandwiches with HamondCheese, for example, the Baker knows the answer and we'll give you theanswer and will provide the solution. and Google is very bad. Example Ijust tried to make up and it was rubbish, but there you go.We've had gardens, tables, bakers and none of it very much Sall.They're great. No, it's great, but basically Google saying I want tounderstand the world much in the way human understands the world. It's got onebasical of doing it's called the knowledge graph and it's Google's understanding of the world. You can think about it like an encyclopedia for machines, and it's basicallythe machine can look up in a nanosecond everything in the world in this massiveencyclopedi. I mean, if you think of Wikipedi is big. Let's sayit's got two billion facts in it. I don't know. Google has gota thousand billion facts in it already and it's only just started. That's atiny proportion of what it's going to understand. So when on too? N Lpyet. But what we had is google used to take information from Wikipedia, we KIP, data, IMDB, music, brains and these other kindof website, rotten tomatoes, all these sites that were human beings giving itinformation. It'said. Okay, we can rely on that as being more orless true. But now it's gone out into the wider world and it's usingwhat we call natural language processing to analyze a text in a page and ratherthan just counting the number of words in it, which is what it usedto do for Seo, it's saying, what can I understand from this text? What facts can I extract from this text and add to my encyclopedia?And that and recently, in fact, they just launched launched a new setof algorithms, one of which is called mum and Um, which mean thatit is a thousand times more powerful than it was a year ago. Now, if you stop and think about that for a moment, in a yearthey've moved forward a thousand times. and Oh sorry, and this is allaimed at basically taking all the rubbish we write, very badly fragmented information writtenby people who don't know how to express themselves properly, and no insult toanybody in the world, I'm exactly the same. You write anything that's reallyclear? Of course it isn't, because the machine, and this is important, doesn't have an imagination, doesn't have any culture, doesn't have a senseof irony. So when you write something or and it doesn't like poetry,doesn't understand poetry. So when you write something poetic and funny and ironic with, you know, a lot of culture behind it, where you have tomake imagine, it leaves to understand that the machine is completely stuck. Butif we write more clearly, obviously the machine understands better, and LP naturallanguage processing aims at getting the machine to understand better the rubbish that we actuallywrite. Sorry, I'm rubbish is a very, very bad way of sayingit. You know that the way we express ourselves, which is very clearto another human being, but isn't it clear to a machine? And it'smoving forward phenomenally quickly. I think that's the point I'm trying to make,is if they can improve a thousand times in a year, that's exponential.In another year it's going to be tenzero times more than it is today.So on and so forth, and I'll just tell you a really quick storywith go. If anybody doesn't know, this story is they had Alphago thatlearned to be basically, I can't remember the exact story, but they spentten years building a program that could be to human being at go. Gois the most complicated gaming human history,...

...with more possible different options than thereare atoms in the universe, and a machine simply cannot comprehend it or analyzeit. To that extent, they spent ten years building this algorithm that couldfinally be human being and then they put that in the Bin and they startedanother one and it took them less than a year to build a new machinethat not only beat one human being but beat every single human being on earth. Wow, okay, and that's the point, is that they spent tenyears getting to one stage and it was another year to get to the nextstage and beat every human being. And now there's no point in building anymore algorithms and do that because it's so easy. Human beings have got leftbehind in that. So the the speed at which they can make these machinessmarter is beyond that anything we've ever experienced before and it's kind of scary,but it's also kind of exciting to yeah, because when you say, when youtalk about things like they are or bring it up, I just havethe terminator theme in the back of my head. You know, it's likethey're totally algorithms, going to create an algorithm. We're screwed. Yeah,we're gonna be like if, yeah, it's got that. This is whenyou get into like hearing people talk about like, well, we're already inthe Matrix, Skynet, man, Skynet, but but it's exactly it is thatthe machine, and sorry, this actually comes back having geeked out andbeen a bit kind of overenthusiastic and probably quite confusing, and I do apologizeto everybody. But rather than focus on what are the factors that we thinkchange the results in Google, think about what Google are asking the machine todo. And the machine is writing itself. It's sitting now, it's going,okay, here's what I'm trying to do. Every time I do it, Google then tell me this was good, this was bad. So they're sendingin corrective data or real or confirmation data, and the machine will thenadapt itself to try to please the machine the human beings in terms of thegold the me the human beings have given it. So nobody really knows whatthe machine is doing to solve this problem. So there's no point in obsessing aboutthe individual details. We need to focus on what are the matrics thatGoogle a giving this machine, and the matrics are customer satisfaction, Google's customersatisfaction and, once again, your audience, or a subset of Google's users,who are in fact a customers. Google simply wants to bring the bestservice they can to your audience, who are subset of their users. Yeah, I like how you said earlier. It's like looking at Google like youtrying to like look at it, you know, perpendicularly, look at itparallels, you know, like try to go in the direction that they're going. And that's kind of where that Hole Seo strategy everything. You can havesomebody that knows this stuff, and that's why organic is not free or cheap, because it's like you've got to have somebody that's got that thought process tosee, because as fast as it changes at updates, there's got to besomebody that's aware of these things to be able to keep you current, becausethat's a whole point of a branding agency. Well, there's a lot of pointsin the branding agency. One of our one of the reasons, orwhat a branding agency does is keep you current, and it's not just acrosslike visuals, it's also things like this, and so I love that you broughtthat up about like stop trying to attack Google like that and try togo with it and where it's going and try to make your brand everything inthat way as well. That's great. Yeah, I mean it's trying toplease your audience just as much as you are. So if you, Imean, and it sounds, try but if you can satisfy your own audience, all you then need to do is convinced Google that you can do it. and Bob's your uncle. You've made yours see out. There's no needto fret about it. I love that, man, it cut. It's Iknow a lot of listeners are probably here locally, but Bob's your uncle. The fact you pop that one and I love that. Okay, butbobby's actually my uncle. It's just the it's that there's your for those listening, there's your cultural difference, right there rubbish. Bob's your uncle. There'sa million more, but it's a me. I love it. I love it. Yeah, Ower's I guess you. So you guys don't say Bob's youruncle. What do you say? I don't know, man, we'rekind of a mishmash of like instead of that's awesome, that's amazing. Youknow. There you go at a boy. There's all those all right, Oh, you don't say. And you've got a possum in your pocket.You'RE gonna have to define that. One kicked on mamples. You don't okay, I think. Is that all POSSOM in your pocketing? Obviously you havea particular point of view on that, but I just meant you've caught yourpossum. Got You got it, so I know it wasn't rude. Sorry, no, no, no, there's a lot of people here in thecountry that you know, they possums. They deal with thills a lot.So if you got a POSI, that's a bad day here, Ducky,if you got a possum in your pocket,...

...been so New York. Okay,I think. I think one Radi importent thing to batter in mind tableis when you're from the UK living in France, you have so little knowledgeof American coach that you're just going to make ideal tick comments like cups ofTas sliding off tables and possible pockets and it's not going to make any sense. We have not you have not been that far field. Don't worry aboutit. I don't think that. I don't think anything's been said here thatpeople probably didn't catch it just yeah, except Mitch's garden analogy. You know, I don't know about that one. Yeah, it was good. Igot you know, I think that American obviously off topic. That's okay.We like the variety here. You know, American culture gets, it's more andmore fascinated with, you know, other cultures, like you know UK. You know the Netflix, for example. I'm a big fan of the show, the series the crown. You know, of course, I'm surethe royal family probably isn't, but you know, I mean I enjoy that. Like you're I'm a big fan, a big fan of being of history. anyways. You know, American history is one thing. European history preWorld War One and all that has been something that I've been read diving backinto, just because, you know, it's just, I don't know,it's more fascinats, more rich in that sense, and kind of learned,like how did we get from those times to now? Is always a goodlesson to kind of revise yourself on and see, because, I mean,I don't make many people realize like how Europe was set up with monarchs andhow that kind of all change radically during, you know, when World War Onebroke out. So that anyway right. And how we going to get throughthe next steps? Nobody knows, and it's going to be incredibly interesting. I mean I think we're really at the door and of something. Imean you were talking about Tim and I own the make trix. You know, could be scary, could be wonderful, could be a mixed with both.We really don't know. Yeah, I been watching a lot of vikingsin the Amazon prime so like that's probably closer to where we're but maybe that'sjust the C yeah, Jonathan his backyard, knocking down a tree, carving outa boat, is getting ready. Its Getting Ready. Did Water,but it's fine. I don't know what brought this to mind, but Ijust thought this after just for the sake of conversation. It's just that thefact that you walk down a you walk through Boston or Philadelphia and the UnitedStation, you walk through the old parts of it, it's like, ohit's two hundred fifty years old, that's old. You Walk few parts ofEurope that are, you know, villages that still existed or a house inyears old. I mean just the perspective, the perspective is just so fascinating betweenthe between the US in Europe. From that respect, I think.I do think kind of certainly back to the Internet. The global nature ofthe Internet, I think has given a lot of people in opportunity to gaina that global perspective, how much larger the world is, but at thesame time, the ability to immediately communicate the three of us with you,Jason, in real time in Paris in the in this day and age,how how we take and take that for granted now. It's just amazing.I mean ten you're is saying ten years ago. Is that? Is itrealistic to say that it wasn't close? I mean, you know, hebarely had I think. I mean coming back to kind of Google and thethe whole digital mock thing thing is, I think people fail to realize howgeo sensitive Google is, and that world perspective is that we think, yeah, okay, it's a big world and I kind of assume the results aretalking about brand steps. Once again, for a company within the same country. You will see very different brand sets in New York then you will inSan Francisco for a brand or a person, and then different again in Australia,because what Google is showing in Australia, that's take. That is example,is what's relevant to the Australian audience. So if I'm an international brand andI've gotten New York Times article, that will rank on my Brandze whensomebody searched my brand name in New York and perhaps on Francisco. In Australiait's The Sydney Times that's going to rank. And that perspective is that Google isincredibly Geo sensitive, especially to people's names. What is the intent ofthe person searching? What is going to be useful for them for this brandin the Gi in the circumstances which will could be mobile, desktop, butspecifically the geolocation they find themselves in. Yeah, that's almost like an entireanother episode in podcast. Absolutely everybody that I know is like you know,they want to rank at the top locally...

...for local search, and it's like, there's no, okay. That's kind of all I can answer to thembecause I don't want to break their heart. We've lost. We've lots of deals. Something you remember, Jason. We lost a potential client because anotheragency ranked hire for just like a web the term web design or something likethat, and I'm like yeah, but we're not. We're not in thatarea. Of course they're going to rank Euri than us. We're not inthere. It's our hang her head on. Yeah, we're more in the digitalbranding management type arena, which actually encompasses all the things, including marketingand web and all that, but we don't really like like our thing isthe branding because, I mean, we've seen so many projects in our timeand our careers that didn't start with defining that message in the voice and toneand then the creative and you know I mean as a web designer. I'vebeen handed pamphlets before and said can you make a website out of that?I mean and and I did, but you know, don't, don't usethat to make a tshirt or logo or, you know, anything out of it. Because it's a pamphlet. Yes, that's the right color. And thepoint you're making about branding is kind of like what you're saying, Jonathan. Ranking for a specific tim in a specific place is truly the one trickpony. Don't hang you out, as you are saying, match on thatone trick pony. Brand is golden because it crosses all the channels and getsoffline and hits you your audience, exactly why you need it too, ifyou've got that consistent brand message, rund is universal. Yeah, it's notsomething somebody else can copy. Your steel, because usually it's tied to you know, somebody or something you know. That's that's unique. So that's that'sone thing that I that I love about it is it's like, you know, because I I'm not really into like like nerd. Brand is really nota gimmick. It's just a name that kind of evolved out of the factthat that's who I am and it was a podcast and then Mitch jumped onit and boom, you know, it kind of turned into what it isnow. You know, could have called it just about anything, in myopinion, but it needed to fit our personalities and it just seemed to work. So that's why we kind of landed on that for us. But it'snot a gimmick. I know many people may think all your nerds like.Well, yeah, but how we define a NERD is the little wheat andquote, not what you love, but how you love it. So itkind of doesn't compass. Like you, Jason, like what you love.You know, I mean you're you talked about like your you said it yourself. You yeek out over this stuff. You know, it out over allthis. So yeah, that's that's who you are. That's your nerd.You know, it's very similar to John's nerd in that sense, because that'ssort of where heat, where he geeks out to. And now Vikings,for some reason. Hey, vikings are cool, man. I got noproblem with that. The Vikings is survival and a post apocalyptic world. Soyou know, lots of lots of what would you call it? I'm willingto give that a lot of Lee. Why? Because you may well beright and I'm maybe regret the fight, but I've got no idea how tocalve about. I'm a practicing acts throne and everything. You know. Yeah, is that a Jason? Is that a thing? That's happening on theother side of the Atlantic. It's we have like like pubs and bars openingup here in the states where one of the things you can do, youknow, you go into a pub in England and people are throwing darts.You know what you're going with this, Mitch. Now you now it's becominga thing in the states where people are throwing axes with me, robbing whilebeing served liquor. Well, that sounds really dangerous. Definitely not. I'veI've come across and if I did come across it, I would probably won'tthe other way just curious. I was just curious, just trying to takethe global temperature here. No, I'm being a beginning to wonder if Idon't get act enough. I don't see this happening in Paris. But nowmaybe I just have a maybe have a flawed view of what Paris is actuallylike. But yeah, well, yeah, actro, there's axe throwing contest,there's places that are just set up just to throat without the liquor,just a just right and compete and it's it's starts and I you know,it's been a thing for about, I don't know, last five mill Iknow, say last five years, because things are blown by for me,so I don't even probably know what decade I'm in right now. Maybe five, maybe, maybe five. Okay, so, yeah, yeah, there'sthrowing axes, but that's yeah, I agree, that probably a good mixwith liquor and axes, but anyway, uhum. So, anyways, weappreciate having you on the show. You know, I take some time tellpeople where they can find you online. Tell me where your website is,all that stuff. Anything you want to plug one last time before we signoff? Right, Ye, will offline. You definitely won't find me in apope where they throw axes, so...

...forget that. What online? Youcan find me on twitter. I like twitter a lot. I do lotsof experiments on brands, ups and knowledge panels and Google's understanding of the world, the NLP you were talking about earlier, on the knowledge graph, and Ipost them to twitter. So if you're interested in seeing in silly experimentson cartoon characters and writers and books and myself and my company, follow meon twitter. It's all a bit mad, but it's a lot of fun andI enjoy it greatly. If you're a bit more serious, Linkedin Itend to post more serious stuff. Other than that, search my name JasonBarnard and you'll see all of the stuff, all the sites. The search enginejournal. I see ranking world left Jason Barnardcom my Psychecali Q, Mycompany, the Knowledge Panel, take your pick. Go and look at theblue dog. Go and look at the folk folk punk band that I wasin. Reading my search engine journal I called the choice is yours, andthat's the point of a brandster. I want to ask before we jump off, how did you get is the is the brain stir get self acclaimed?Is that something that you were given? You're faming me out, you're brandingyeah, you found me out. This is straight from the horse's mouth.I've decided. That's what I'm called and I'm don't know. I understand,but part of the challenge for me is can I convince Google to call methat? Right answer so far is no, but I'm not giving out. Well, well, include everything Lictar we included in the PODCAST. I don'tall that, so maybe it'll it'll grab rate there. It's Jonathan mentioned Jason, who we're going to nail it finally after all these years. Thank youvery much, guys coming after you. Yeah, I'M gonna we'll have todo this again. I think. I think we've I think there's lots ofaround we still haven't covered. Oh yeah, absolutely, clearly. Yeah, butthe the the the the Viking boat thing. Perhaps we can. Wecan, we can stick to garden's tables and teapots falling off tables. Yeah, I don't know if they'll let John actually make a boat in the middleof Metro Vel, but the Guar, a garden, I think we couldprobably work on the garden. Pardon, get always not. Yeah, yeah, no, zoning laws get violated, nobody gets hurt in the making ofthis place. Got Hurt in the making of this podcast, which you canfind a nerd brand agencycom podcast. You can find us across social networks atNerd Grant Agency. Like and subscribe to this podcast on Youtube. Clip thebell for notifications so that you can get the latest episode sent to you.All that good stuff. I think I've covered. That's one thing I'm gettingused to. Is like saying all that for youtubes. So, if Imight say so, Jason, that was the most beautiful smooth segue the I'veheard in many and there I sometimes get that all their times. It's justa mess, they know. But anyways, I appreciate you being on the showwith us. Thank you. All our listeners check Jason Out. willput links in the description and the content below the video on youtube and foreverybody, keep your nerve brand strong.

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